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Old 11-24-2017, 06:24 PM
Esteban Esteban is offline
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Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

Iíve been asked to pass along some information that is of interest to waterfowl hunters. The FWC has scheduled a herbicide treatment on a limited amount of hydrilla on Lake Rousseau to be done between the first and second phases of duck season. This project is only targeting excessive hydrilla growth only in navigation channels that are nearly impassable by small boats and outboard motors. This was originally scheduled in early September, but Hurricane Irma caused it to be delayed due to the rapid influx of low oxygen water. Only now have oxygen levers recovered to the point where it is safe to treat.

Yes, they are aware that this is during waterfowl season but the conditions have been such that it could not be done before now. And no, it canít wait until the season is over as it is necessary and much needed to be done now for continued boater access for hunters and fishermen. It is being done early in the break between the first and second phases and is limited to only targeting navigation channels and therefore should have very little if any impact on the hunting out there for the remainder of the season. Iíve attached an announcement with more information explaining what they are doing and why they feel they need to do it at this time as opposed to waiting another 2-3 months. There is also a brief synopsis of the current conditions on Lake Rousseau as it pertains to duck hunters.


Like Hurricane Hermine last year, Hurricane Irma has had significant impacts on Lake Rousseau. However, this year the storm impacts are much more significant and longer lasting. For about a week dissolved oxygen levels in the Withlacoochee River upstream of Lake Rousseau were running approximately 0.2 ppm and 0.3 ppm within the main navigation channels of Lake Rousseau. A significant fish kill (conservative estimate of 35,000 fish of all species/sizes) occurred on Lake Rousseau in September due to the low oxygen levels. There were also fish kills in various locations on the Withlacoochee River and on Lake Panasoffkee as well. Oxygen levels have been very slowly improving since September but it has taken until mid-November to begin approaching normal levels in Lake Rousseau.

A hydrilla and floating plant treatment had been scheduled for early September in Lake Rousseau. The low oxygen levels forced those treatments to be postponed until oxygen levels recovered. It was not until early October when treatment of floating plants could be resumed and the hydrilla treatment could not be rescheduled until now. However, operations are being conducted in between phases to mitigate any disturbances during active hunting times.
Last year Hurricane Hermine controlled approximately 700 acres of hydrilla in Lake Rousseau. Hurricane Irma controlled approximately 800 acres of hydrilla this year. However, this hydrilla control was in the middle parts of Rousseau and hydrilla coverage actually has increased in the western (deeper) part of Rousseau. County Trail A is nearly closed in thus necessitating the need to treat hydrilla. Once County Trail A closes in a kicker boat would not be able to safely navigate from the Inglis Dam Ramp to any part of Lake Rousseau.


 photo County Trail A_zps44ntj3ws.jpg
Figure 1: County Trail A near Inglis Dam Ramp on Lake Rousseau.

Another major impact from Hurricane Irma is that the associated flooding and stream flow washed incredible amounts of plant material downstream, with a lot of that being floating plants. Once those floating plants hit Lake Rousseau they lodged against other vegetation or parked on mats of topped out hydrilla and started growing, quickly. This growth caused floating plants to quickly exceed maintenance control guidelines (less than 5% of the total vegetation coverage) even while oxygen levels were still too low to schedule control operations. Floating plants must be addressed in between hunting phases in order to hope that further control operations can be postponed until February. Cold weather (multiple hard freezes) certainly would help!

December Ė January Outlook

Although shifted toward the western end of Lake Rousseau there is still plenty of hydrilla present, about 800 acres. There is still hydrilla in the middle part of Rousseau but it is not solid topped out like it was last year in some places. High flows from Irma have created channels and holes in the hydrilla in the middle part of Rousseau and where a lot of vegetation is still present it may be coontail (and/or eelgrass) mixed with hydrilla or in place of just hydrilla. If you are looking for solid, topped out hydrilla the western end of Rousseau will be your best bet (adjacent to Cross Florida Greenways property, from the trail leading to the locks along the northwest shoreline to the dam).

We have not had a winter for several years now and waterfowl just are not showing up in any numbers at all on Rousseau. Coots are not even showing up in numbers which is a good indicator for me. They used to show up in large enough numbers to actually provide control of hydrilla over the winter months. Not so the last few years. Saw a small group of blue-wing teal (12 birds) two weeks ago but that was all. Last year the largest group I saw was 14 blue-wing teal and then a smaller group of 6. I was not scouting or particularly looking for birds but still not much of a report. I am going to say that it will take significantly cold weather up north and in particular a significantly cold winter season to push birds further south. However, we have been trending the opposite direction. When I see large rafts of coots start showing up again I will start taking a harder look at what might be sitting with them.

For more information contact Bruce V. Jaggers (Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, Inverness) at 352-726-8622
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Originally Posted by duckbone:
QUOTA PERMITS...the root of all evil in florida hunting.
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:52 AM
godvlman godvlman is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

So now we know FWC relates that Hurricanes control hydrilla... Then I ask why do they spray before and during Hurricane season.

Something tells me the spraying effects will expand well beyond the navigational parameters they are trying to meet. When they throw the "disclaimer" in there that they are also targeting "floating plants" you can bet the hydrilla will be cut back drastically in other places.. As we have evidence of the same remarks and detrimental results when it comes to wintering waterfowl here in Central/South Florida.

FWC seems to be so helpful they do not wanna spray during the season while hunters are in the marsh.... yet that is not the problem, its the after affects of the spraying and the damage it does...

Yes the coontail, milfoil, eel grass, pond weed and other native SAV are mixed in with the hydrilla so when the spraying is done it ALL dies not just the hydrilla!!!

"Not having a winter for years"?? I am not sure who's statement that is? But why isn't any body of water south affected the same way? Some believe you don't need cold weather for coots / ducks to migrate especially the ones we see here in Florida.

Maybe, just maybe no birds visit the lake anymore because the Lake is SICK? Just like they are finding some of the lakes SICK in the middle part of the State?.

Just my thoughts, as I have heard the same "sales pitch" before...

I would think by looking at the pics, if you have SAV coverage like that and NO birds their is another issue... not cold weather.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:08 PM
Esteban Esteban is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by godvlman
So now we know FWC relates that Hurricanes control hydrilla... Then I ask why do they spray before and during Hurricane season. Hurricanes are just one measure of control that might or might not happen and as such can't be depended on for hydrilla control.

Something tells me the spraying effects will expand well beyond the navigational parameters they are trying to meet. When they throw the "disclaimer" in there that they are also targeting "floating plants" you can bet the hydrilla will be cut back drastically in other places.. As we have evidence of the same remarks and detrimental results when it comes to wintering waterfowl here in Central/South Florida. Man, you have such a negative opinion of what the FWC and Water Management Districts do. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe they are actually trying to help with their efforts? You do know that duck hunters are a very small minority of users don't you? And yet it seems they are the loudest of critics.

FWC seems to be so helpful they do not wanna spray during the season while hunters are in the marsh.... yet that is not the problem, its the after affects of the spraying and the damage it does... Again, not all damage is done by spraying, there are a lot of natural factors that can and do kill hydrilla seemingly for no reason. And when that happens, the first ones to get the blame are the agencies that are trying to control the invasive plants whether they've had any involvement in it or not.

Yes the coontail, milfoil, eel grass, pond weed and other native SAV are mixed in with the hydrilla so when the spraying is done it ALL dies not just the hydrilla!!! So, you are a certified plant biologist and herbicide specialist now? And you know specifically what chemicals they use in what proportions, and the effects these chemicals have on each particular species of SAV? One really shouldn't make generalized statements without having the knowledge to back it up

"Not having a winter for years"?? I am not sure who's statement that is? But why isn't any body of water south affected the same way? Some believe you don't need cold weather for coots / ducks to migrate especially the ones we see here in Florida.

Maybe, just maybe no birds visit the lake anymore because the Lake is SICK? Just like they are finding some of the lakes SICK in the middle part of the State?. Maybe the lakes are sick due to excessive nutrients and pollutants constantly being poured into them from farm and residential runoff. Perhaps your anger would be better directed to those lamebrains in Tallahassee that have done nothing to stop the pollution. They simply turn a blind eye to it and continue to allow it to happen along with continuing to allow further destruction of our wetlands that help mitigate these problems. And don't even get me started on how the 1000 people a day moving down here has increased development, most of whom would like to live next to a lake or river. It all adds up over time.

Just my thoughts, as I have heard the same "sales pitch" before...

I would think by looking at the pics, if you have SAV coverage like that and NO birds their is another issue... not cold weather. Yes, other issues like warmer weather up north, changing farm practices that allow for better winter habitat further north. This is what's happening to Texas and Louisiana and their harvest numbers reflect that. Why is it that for the last few years we've been hearing about how the hunting up north is better than it's ever been. More open water later in the season and fewer ducks moving south are indicative of overall warmer winters and that's affecting everything south, including Florida.
It seems that some people constantly denigrate and demean the FWC and the various Water Management Districts for their efforts with unfounded accusations and unproven conclusions. While I'm sure those agencies have made some mistakes over the years, their projects are specific and targeted and not simply widespread rampant destruction.

You can go out to the following link and find out about their control schedule for any lake in the state. It's a very good website and explains their workplan, weekly schedule of operations, and gives you access to the plan for each project including the amount of acreage, what is specifically targeted and for what reason, and the cost.

These constant accusations of the FWC and Water Management District staff only hinder our efforts to foster better communications and rapport with these agencies and are frankly an insult to a lot of these folks. Those that I know personally are honest, hard working individuals that really are trying to do their jobs as best they can, and are working to make things better for everyone, including the whining, self-centered, me-first duck hunters.

If I didn't know better I might think that some of this stuff that is being put out there about killing off all the hydrilla or ruining habitat is done deliberately as a misinformation campaign in an attempt to keep people out of an area so it will be better hunting for the one(s) that put out this stuff. If I didn't know better...


https://public.myfwc.com/hsc/pmars/w...ySchedule.aspx
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Originally Posted by duckbone:
QUOTA PERMITS...the root of all evil in florida hunting.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:59 PM
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Reel Teal Reel Teal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteban View Post
It seems that some people constantly denigrate and demean the FWC and the various Water Management Districts for their efforts with unfounded accusations and unproven conclusions. While I'm sure those agencies have made some mistakes over the years, their projects are specific and targeted and not simply widespread rampant destruction.

You can go out to the following link and find out about their control schedule for any lake in the state. It's a very good website and explains their workplan, weekly schedule of operations, and gives you access to the plan for each project including the amount of acreage, what is specifically targeted and for what reason, and the cost.

These constant accusations of the FWC and Water Management District staff only hinder our efforts to foster better communications and rapport with these agencies and are frankly an insult to a lot of these folks. Those that I know personally are honest, hard working individuals that really are trying to do their jobs as best they can, and are working to make things better for everyone, including the whining, self-centered, me-first duck hunters.

If I didn't know better I might think that some of this stuff that is being put out there about killing off all the hydrilla or ruining habitat is done deliberately as a misinformation campaign in an attempt to keep people out of an area so it will be better hunting for the one(s) that put out this stuff. If I didn't know better...


https://public.myfwc.com/hsc/pmars/w...ySchedule.aspx
The site is a great resource. Just recently they got caught spraying outside of the plans and got hammered. Nothing wrong with keeping feet to the fire with them. I usually have very nice phone calls but I'd say 50% I get lied to. So everything gets taken with a grain of salt these days

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Old 11-29-2017, 02:13 PM
godvlman godvlman is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

So now we know FWC relates that Hurricanes control hydrilla... Then I ask why do they spray before and during Hurricane season. Hurricanes are just one measure of control that might or might not happen and as such can't be depended on for hydrilla control. Correct, but since it's our money after all, don't you think from a cost and common sense standpoint it would be best to come up with some type of protocol to prevent the spraying before and then again after a hurricane? Maybe even small less detrimental treatments until after hurricane season rather than nuking everything and then again only a few short months later?

Something tells me the spraying effects will expand well beyond the navigational parameters they are trying to meet. When they throw the "disclaimer" in there that they are also targeting "floating plants" you can bet the hydrilla will be cut back drastically in other places.. As we have evidence of the same remarks and detrimental results when it comes to wintering waterfowl here in Central/South Florida. Man, you have such a negative opinion of what the FWC and Water Management Districts do. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe they are actually trying to help with their efforts? You do know that duck hunters are a very small minority of users don't you? And yet it seems they are the loudest of critics. I wouldnt call it a negative opinion, I call it "holding people accountable". Some do try to help with their efforts, however some just don't give a Shat!! As I have numerous pics to prove it. I am well aware duck hunters are a small minority, yet it doesn't hurt to have a loud voice and hold people accountable? I would think you can throw the bass fisherman into the same category as the duck hunters contrary to what FWC says?

FWC seems to be so helpful they do not wanna spray during the season while hunters are in the marsh.... yet that is not the problem, its the after affects of the spraying and the damage it does... Again, not all damage is done by spraying, there are a lot of natural factors that can and do kill hydrilla seemingly for no reason. And when that happens, the first ones to get the blame are the agencies that are trying to control the invasive plants whether they've had any involvement in it or not.

Yes the coontail, milfoil, eel grass, pond weed and other native SAV are mixed in with the hydrilla so when the spraying is done it ALL dies not just the hydrilla!!! So, you are a certified plant biologist and herbicide specialist now? And you know specifically what chemicals they use in what proportions, and the effects these chemicals have on each particular species of SAV? One really shouldn't make generalized statements without having the knowledge to back it up As a matter a fact I have taken a few years of classes and have some certifications when it comes to SAV and would call myself certified yet I am by far no expert. By the way it is posted what chemicals and proportions are used as the agencies are required to list them. It all came from trying to hold the agencies accountable years ago.

"Not having a winter for years"?? I am not sure who's statement that is? But why isn't any body of water south affected the same way? Some believe you don't need cold weather for coots / ducks to migrate especially the ones we see here in Florida.

Maybe, just maybe no birds visit the lake anymore because the Lake is SICK? Just like they are finding some of the lakes SICK in the middle part of the State?. Maybe the lakes are sick due to excessive nutrients and pollutants constantly being poured into them from farm and residential runoff. Perhaps your anger would be better directed to those lamebrains in Tallahassee that have done nothing to stop the pollution. They simply turn a blind eye to it and continue to allow it to happen along with continuing to allow further destruction of our wetlands that help mitigate these problems. And don't even get me started on how the 1000 people a day moving down here has increased development, most of whom would like to live next to a lake or river. It all adds up over time.No anger here, I just want to be told the truth when it comes to spray schedules and areas being sprayed, as holding agencies accountable for not spraying or spraying too much. Yes many are turning a blind eye on the bigger picture and it will surely be a topic of the future as you are correct it is causing a massive destruction of our wetlands.

Just my thoughts, as I have heard the same "sales pitch" before...

I would think by looking at the pics, if you have SAV coverage like that and NO birds their is another issue... not cold weather. Yes, other issues like warmer weather up north, changing farm practices that allow for better winter habitat further north. This is what's happening to Texas and Louisiana and their harvest numbers reflect that. Why is it that for the last few years we've been hearing about how the hunting up north is better than it's ever been. More open water later in the season and fewer ducks moving south are indicative of overall warmer winters and that's affecting everything south, including Florida.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteban View Post
It seems that some people constantly denigrate and demean the FWC and the various Water Management Districts for their efforts with unfounded accusations and unproven conclusions. While I'm sure those agencies have made some mistakes over the years, their projects are specific and targeted and not simply widespread rampant destruction.

You can go out to the following link and find out about their control schedule for any lake in the state. It's a very good website and explains their workplan, weekly schedule of operations, and gives you access to the plan for each project including the amount of acreage, what is specifically targeted and for what reason, and the cost.

These constant accusations of the FWC and Water Management District staff only hinder our efforts to foster better communications and rapport with these agencies and are frankly an insult to a lot of these folks. Those that I know personally are honest, hard working individuals that really are trying to do their jobs as best they can, and are working to make things better for everyone, including the whining, self-centered, me-first duck hunters. I disagree, they do not hinder, especially when you take pictures and send it to them. It only helps, yes most are honest, however some just don't give a shat and spray just to spray. Right, wrong or indifferent it's more like a QA or QI that any agency should have. If it wasn't for some of the honest folks we wouldn't even have as much say in the matter as we do today. You can call it whining or about the duck hunter, however it's not. It's about the wintering waterfowl that visit our state that need the food source to survive. IMO the wrong message is getting put out there when FWC tries to not vist the marsh to hinder the duck hunter. Any time they visit the marsh while wintering waterfowl are present they are being destructive.

If I didn't know better I might think that some of this stuff that is being put out there about killing off all the hydrilla or ruining habitat is done deliberately as a misinformation campaign in an attempt to keep people out of an area so it will be better hunting for the one(s) that put out this stuff. If I didn't know better...I can assure you in my part of the state it is not some type of misinformation campaign...but that's a good one.

https://public.myfwc.com/hsc/pmars/w...ySchedule.aspx
In ending, I certainly hope the agency hired to do the spraying does a good job and they do not kill any more SAV then they have to... just as I hope if they don't someone will notify FWC and hold them accountable.

Please keep in mind, when the issue at hand here is wintering waterfowl and providing them a suitable habitat to winter and survive to breed another day it allows other stakeholders to play apart in the big picture rather than the small whining "duck hunter" group.

Last edited by godvlman; 11-29-2017 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:11 AM
Esteban Esteban is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by godvlman
Correct, but since it's our money after all, don't you think from a cost and common sense standpoint it would be best to come up with some type of protocol to prevent the spraying before and then again after a hurricane? Maybe even small less detrimental treatments until after hurricane season rather than nuking everything and then again only a few short months later? So, you don't think they take that into account when they plan their treatment schedules? From my conversations with these folks each project is determined on an as needed basis and is put together in a matter of a few weeks after their in the field observations. And when, or more appropriately IF, a hurricane impacts the area then that too is taken into account and any treatments are either modified or cancelled altogether once they have assessed the conditions. You keep saying things like "nuking everything" as though that's the standard practice when it's not, at least not in this part of the state. And they have been trending to smaller treatments more often throughout the year rather than waiting until it becomes a bigger problem requiring bigger treatment options.

I wouldn't call it a negative opinion, I call it "holding people accountable". Some do try to help with their efforts, however some just don't give a Shat!! As I have numerous pics to prove it. I am well aware duck hunters are a small minority, yet it doesn't hurt to have a loud voice and hold people accountable? I would think you can throw the bass fisherman into the same category as the duck hunters contrary to what FWC says? There's nothing wrong with holding people accountable, but there are better ways than criticizing everything with a broad brush such as "nuking everything" when it fact their projects are, according to their plans, very specific and limited in scope. As Reel Teal says, if they go beyond their scope they will be held accountable which can and does include loss of any and all future contracts with the agencies. And I wouldn't throw the bass fishermen in the same category as duck hunters, they probably outnumber us 10 to 1 and I'd venture a guess a lot of them don't care for the same things we do.

As a matter a fact I have taken a few years of classes and have some certifications when it comes to SAV and would call myself certified yet I am by far no expert. By the way it is posted what chemicals and proportions are used as the agencies are required to list them. It all came from trying to hold the agencies accountable years ago. Well then you should know that now all chemicals are killing off all the SAV or vegetation our there as some are specific to certain types of plants. However, nothing is perfect and there is bound to be some collateral damage. But this is where the post treatment inspections by the agencies determines if the contract has been met, and if not the repercussions of not following the contract as specified.

No anger here, I just want to be told the truth when it comes to spray schedules and areas being sprayed, as holding agencies accountable for not spraying or spraying too much. Yes many are turning a blind eye on the bigger picture and it will surely be a topic of the future as you are correct it is causing a massive destruction of our wetlands. I think we all want to be told the truth, and from my experiences I would have to say that has generally been the case.

I disagree, they do not hinder, especially when you take pictures and send it to them. It only helps, yes most are honest, however some just don't give a shat and spray just to spray. Right, wrong or indifferent it's more like a QA or QI that any agency should have. If it wasn't for some of the honest folks we wouldn't even have as much say in the matter as we do today. You can call it whining or about the duck hunter, however it's not. It's about the wintering waterfowl that visit our state that need the food source to survive. IMO the wrong message is getting put out there when FWC tries to not visit the marsh to hinder the duck hunter. Any time they visit the marsh while wintering waterfowl are present they are being destructive. So, are you saying that the FWC should do no treatment projects at all when waterfowl are down here? Basically that would mean nothing from the middle of September until probably March which is unreasonable and misses out on those small windows where treatment options are viable and most effective. Sorry, but that just isn't a realistic option as problems would compound quickly and the agencies would never be able to catch up. And just what would the other stakeholder groups think of that? They wouldn't be too keen on it I can tell you.

In ending, I certainly hope the agency hired to do the spraying does a good job and they do not kill any more SAV then they have to... just as I hope if they don't someone will notify FWC and hold them accountable.

Please keep in mind, when the issue at hand here is wintering waterfowl and providing them a suitable habitat to winter and survive to breed another day it allows other stakeholders to play apart in the big picture rather than the small whining "duck hunter" group.
We all have a responsibility to hold these agencies accountable for their actions, and part of that is utilizing the available information, such as their published project schedules, to make sure they follow their plan. And deviation from those plans should be called out and reported to the various management personnel, including pictures, so that if there are problems then can be addressed. However, continually accusing them of not caring and simply "nuking everything" does nothing to help our relationships with these agencies and in fact hinders our efforts to work with them on things in the future.

In closing I will qualify things by saying that I can only speak for the agency folks working in my area, which is Central Florida, and things are pretty good around here as far as what they have done in the past and are planning on doing in the future. So, if there are problems in other areas of the state then people in those areas need to be on top of it and try and work with the agencies instead of constantly criticizing and insulting the very people that can help to fix it. There is no easy or simple answer, it's just something that needs to be worked at on a long term basis.
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Originally Posted by duckbone:
QUOTA PERMITS...the root of all evil in florida hunting.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:15 AM
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Reel Teal Reel Teal is offline
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Originally Posted by Esteban View Post
We all have a responsibility to hold these agencies accountable for their actions, and part of that is utilizing the available information, such as their published project schedules, to make sure they follow their plan. And deviation from those plans should be called out and reported to the various management personnel, including pictures, so that if there are problems then can be addressed. However, continually accusing them of not caring and simply "nuking everything" does nothing to help our relationships with these agencies and in fact hinders our efforts to work with them on things in the future.

In closing I will qualify things by saying that I can only speak for the agency folks working in my area, which is Central Florida, and things are pretty good around here as far as what they have done in the past and are planning on doing in the future. So, if there are problems in other areas of the state then people in those areas need to be on top of it and try and work with the agencies instead of constantly criticizing and insulting the very people that can help to fix it. There is no easy or simple answer, it's just something that needs to be worked at on a long term basis.
I'm in central florida and I'm going to have disagree greatly lol central florida is a big area though.

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Old 12-01-2017, 10:09 AM
Esteban Esteban is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

I guess I should say that it's more like north central Florida. Pretty much from Leesburg in the south up to I-10 in the north, Cedar Key to St. Augustine. So I realize that's not the typical definition of central Florida, but that's how I think of it.

I really don't know much about what things are like outside of this area so you could be right.
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Originally Posted by duckbone:
QUOTA PERMITS...the root of all evil in florida hunting.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:39 AM
godvlman godvlman is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

After it's all said and done with I am sure we can debate the issues until we are both "blue" in the face... I am about holding people and agencies accountable.

Just to show their is no propaganda being thrown out there to keep people out of an area...

Yes, I use the term "NUKED"... and this is what I mean about it. Please keep in mind this came from "just spraying a few of the floating invasives" no big deal for duck hunters or the wintering waterfowl that are showing up...

First picture to the left... Taken mid October second picture taken mid February at almost the same GPS coordinates. Agencies responsible tell you they do not nor did they spray for hydrilla. Just simply hitting the floating lettuce/hyacinths. Would be more than happy to show you many more...
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:18 PM
Esteban Esteban is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

That's all well and good, but I'm not convinced you can definitively say that was caused by spraying of the floating plants. I can say with 100% certainty that I've seen hydrilla die-offs approaching that magnitude that had no treatments done. Numerous factors such as a large influx of dark and/or turbid water, a rapid rise in water levels, or even a strong cold snap can decimate hydrilla seemingly overnight. Heck, Newnan's Lake in Gainesville used to be loaded with hydrilla several years ago, but over the course of a single year it virtually disappeared from the entire lake and has never returned. And they never sprayed it, go figure.

For nearly 20 years I've been talking to a number of very knowledgeable plant biologists.about hydrilla and they all pretty much say the same thing. Generally speaking hydrilla is fairly predictable, yet there are times when it does things that just totally baffle them. One told me that he'd been dealing with it for over 30 years and he still couldn't figure it out.

The point I'm making is that not every hydrilla die-off is caused by chemical treatments, there are a lot of natural factors that can and do affect where and when it will grow. Has there been too much spraying done over the years? I think we can all agree the answer is yes. But are all the instances of hydrilla dying off or disappearing from an area due to excessive spraying? Absolutely not.

Having said that, I suppose we will just agree to disagree on this, but we can agree that we should hold the agencies accountable for their projects. And using that website is a good way to know what, when, and why they are doing them.
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Originally Posted by duckbone:
QUOTA PERMITS...the root of all evil in florida hunting.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:10 AM
godvlman godvlman is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

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Originally Posted by Esteban View Post
That's all well and good, but I'm not convinced you can definitively say that was caused by spraying of the floating plants. I can say with 100% certainty that I've seen hydrilla die-offs approaching that magnitude that had no treatments done. Numerous factors such as a large influx of dark and/or turbid water, a rapid rise in water levels, or even a strong cold snap can decimate hydrilla seemingly overnight. Heck, Newnan's Lake in Gainesville used to be loaded with hydrilla several years ago, but over the course of a single year it virtually disappeared from the entire lake and has never returned. And they never sprayed it, go figure. All well and good? No doubt all those excuses can and will kill off hydrilla. Yet, in this instance, it was looked into and none of them played a part. Guess we can "chalk" it up to all being well and good and it will eventually grow back??

For nearly 20 years I've been talking to a number of very knowledgeable plant biologists.about hydrilla and they all pretty much say the same thing. Generally speaking hydrilla is fairly predictable, yet there are times when it does things that just totally baffle them. One told me that he'd been dealing with it for over 30 years and he still couldn't figure it out. Yes, very predictable, predictable enough that our bodies of water should not look the way they do a majority of the time.

The point I'm making is that not every hydrilla die-off is caused by chemical treatments, there are a lot of natural factors that can and do affect where and when it will grow. Has there been too much spraying done over the years? I think we can all agree the answer is yes. But are all the instances of hydrilla dying off or disappearing from an area due to excessive spraying? Absolutely not. After over 30 years of spraying and dealing with it ONE instance is too many for me.

Having said that, I suppose we will just agree to disagree on this, but we can agree that we should hold the agencies accountable for their projects. And using that website is a good way to know what, when, and why they are doing them.
I wonder how the spraying went on the lake you mention, Rousseau? Since it seems they are calling for some weather to push thru? As you post, a strong cold snap can decimate hydrilla. So did FWC just waste funding by not waiting an extra few weeks, or maybe the extra unneeded chemicals along with the cold weather will kill way more than meets their goal which will obviously be okay with them? Maybe they could of knocked it back a few months ago spending and using less chemicals and possibly getting the same outcome? Maybe they could of just waiting an extra few weeks and reassessed? Either way I am sure the big loser in the picture is "wintering waterfowl" along with unnecessary chemicals in our water and funding$$ spent.

How do you plan on holding the responsible agency accountable if the outcome isn't what they told you or put on paper? After all they can simply use the same excuses you posted here, how would you ever prove them wrong or negligent?
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:56 PM
Esteban Esteban is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by godvlman
All well and good? No doubt all those excuses can and will kill off hydrilla. Yet, in this instance, it was looked into and none of them played a part. Guess we can "chalk" it up to all being well and good and it will eventually grow back?? It's possible it was due to the a change in the pH of the water body, that can have a dramatic effect on hydrilla. I just named a few of the causes for hydrilla loss, I'm sure there are numerous others as well. You seem quick to blame it solely on spraying as the only reason the hydrilla disappeared from that area. Unfortunately, that seems to be the fallback position taken by some for any reduction or disappearance of hydrilla from any lake these days.

Yes, very predictable, predictable enough that our bodies of water should not look the way they do a majority of the time. Well, I remember back in the days before we had hydrilla overrunning our lakes, and there was an awful lot of open water back then, made for easier fishing too, so maybe some of them actually do look like they did in the pre-hydrilla days. And it seems to me the duck hunting was pretty good back then from what I've read and heard from people that hunted back then. Could it be that there are other factors keeping the ducks from coming down here like in the good old days? Might be something to that....

After over 30 years of spraying and dealing with it ONE instance is too many for me. So your position is to basically do nothing on these lakes until it becomes a major issue? I'd have to say that's only going to lead to bigger problems than we have now.

I wonder how the spraying went on the lake you mention, Rousseau? I haven't heard yet, but I suspect it went as planned. Since it seems they are calling for some weather to push thru? As you post, a strong cold snap can decimate hydrilla. I wouldn't call this front coming through strong by any measure. It takes some weather at or below freezing to significantly knock back the hydrilla. So did FWC just waste funding by not waiting an extra few weeks, or maybe the extra unneeded chemicals along with the cold weather will kill way more than meets their goal which will obviously be okay with them? Maybe they could of knocked it back a few months ago spending and using less chemicals and possibly getting the same outcome? Maybe they could of just waiting an extra few weeks and reassessed? Actually, if you had read my original post you'd see that they did postpone this treatment from September so they could assess the impact on Hurricane Irma. And while that did have a positive effect on the northern end of the impoundment in reducing hydrilla it had little effect on the hydrilla in the south end. Additionally, it pushed significant floating vegetation to the south end, and by waiting another 3 months allowed the hydrilla to continue growing to where it now needs additional chemical treatment in the navigation channels to keep them open for the fishermen and other boaters. Either way I am sure the big loser in the picture is "wintering waterfowl" along with unnecessary chemicals in our water and funding$$ spent. Did you not read the original post? The only spraying is being done in the navigation channels, not the main impoundment, and as such the majority of the wintering habitat will be left on its own.

How do you plan on holding the responsible agency accountable if the outcome isn't what they told you or put on paper? After all they can simply use the same excuses you posted here, how would you ever prove them wrong or negligent? I guess that unlike you I tend to believe the people I communicate with about these projects. I don't call them liars, I don't disrespect the work they do, and I don't go around badmouthing the agencies when things don't turn out as I would like them to. Sometimes things do happen for reasons that can't simply be explained as the agencies "nuking everything". I'd venture a guess that more often than not mother nature controls things in a way that we can't explain no matter how much we want to find a person or entity to blame.
Your inability to believe that what they are saying is true seems to be based mainly on the fact they are associated with a particular agency rather than whether they as individuals are good and honest people. If you'd get to know them before you rush to judge you might have a different opinion.

It's obvious you are in one camp and I am in another and we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You don't seem to have much faith in people whereas I generally do unless I find out otherwise. And that's somewhat odd since I am a pretty cynical person by nature. So it would appear there is little more to discuss on this and we'll each just carry on with the business of doing what we feel is right.
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Originally Posted by duckbone:
QUOTA PERMITS...the root of all evil in florida hunting.

Last edited by Esteban; 12-07-2017 at 06:31 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:37 PM
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N. Cook N. Cook is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

I commented on this at the FWC Commission meeting yesterday, looking for a interagency meeting to discuss the obvious problems...intended or not...Already got a response for Lake O from the biologist and expect we will see some additional discussion of the situation.....Usually a massive die off of hydrilla as shown in the photos is from either a fast drop in water temperature or a fast rise in water level....or both....
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Old 12-08-2017, 07:58 AM
marsh master marsh master is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

Here is my knowledge for what its worth. First off, I have lived, fished, and hunted the "Backwaters" (Rousseau) for 30 years. I have also been employed by the local government Aquatics department for a breif spell. While we only managed small parcels of the lake, there was plenty of communication between us, FWC, and Applied Aquatics. I have expressed concerns to past and current supervisors of the lake. I cant tell you how many times I have been given the "dark water" coming up the river story while they sprayed anyhow. Why spray if the tannic acid will kill the hydrilla? This year, the Withlacochee almost reached historic flooding levels, the hydrilla never died back? In fact it thrived.
As far as our spraying, FWC gave us an approved amount of acres for each and every aquatic plant to be sprayed yearly. Usually total acres allowed was rather excessive. So, for simplicity sake, lets say we were granted 1000 acres each of hydrilla, coontail, bladderwort, milfoil, etc, you can see where they know and expect collateral damage. In fact, our paperwork would show we targeted bladderwort for the day, but we were really "nuking" as much hydrilla as we could because the lead spray tech so some bladderwort plants in the mix. And you can also mix certain chemicals such as diquat and aquathol while remaining within the label and get results you need.Some chemicals such as Quest are EXTREMELY effective. In fact, after treatments with that we would see the spatterdock shriveling up 75 yards away. And dont think maximum spray rates are not used towards the end of the fiscal year. As if none of this is bad enough, I havent even touched on the spraying of willows torpedo grass and a host of other things. We would hammer willows with Diquat and it is labeled for hydrilla as well?
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:11 AM
marsh master marsh master is offline
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Re: Lake Rousseau Hydrilla Treatment

We also had quite a few "floating days" where our job was to target hyacinths and lettuce. Always seemed odd that we would use chemicals that could target SAV as well? Shortly before my stint with them, I was told about how the crews would just pour cases of Aquathol into the water at a certain tidal river so the tide would wash it in to control milfoil. It was almost like being undercover, in hindsight I wish I would have documented more. Its also known plants wont absorb chemicals at colder water temps, yet you will see crews out somewhere all winter.
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